TreeActions

Dwayne (00:00.886)
All right, well, welcome everybody to another episode of Tree Actions, the Human Forest Street podcast with my co-host Tony Tresoft, as always, behind the scenes, but very much a part of the scene. And joining us today is none other than Johnny Quartez. And Johnny, we always ask everybody a bit as a way to kind of get the juices flowing, as they say.

Johnny (00:05.253)
Yeah, yeah.

Johnny (00:19.389)
video.

Dwayne (00:30.386)
What their first, and this is a question for you, what was your first memory where you, that you connect yourself to a tree or to trees? Where, what resonates and what comes up for you when you think back to the very first time?

Johnny (00:48.477)
Hmm

Johnny (01:00.913)
The reason it's taken me a minute is because it's like, as I find a memory, it just brings up one before and then one before, and then before you know it, you know, I'm two years old.

Dwayne (01:11.411)
Yeah, that's okay.

Johnny (01:13.797)
Um, I think the first time where it really resonated would have been, uh, after, let's see, so my parents split up when I was five and then my dad ended up on an acreage and on that acreage, we, let's see, I can picture it behind the house. We used to have some goats and near all those goats were a whole bunch of willows and poplars around the fire pit and stuff like that.

And I do seem to remember we ended up with a stray cat. Yeah. And now I can see the cat and I can remember his name and stuff, but I used to just escape to the trees because my, uh, my upbringing was interesting to say the least, so I would, I would find a pet, be it a cat or a chicken or a dog or whatever, and then I'd go and hit the yard and I'd spend, I mean, my whole life was just outside roaming around and imagining cool stuff.

Dwayne (01:49.386)
Yeah.

Dwayne (01:59.426)
Mm-hmm.

Johnny (02:12.237)
So I would climb trees with the cat or teach the dogs how to climb trees a little bit with me and stuff. And I do remember just, you know, being at a young age, I'm thinking I would have been maybe about eight at the time, but I found myself climbing around in a lot of trees. And I mean, like all kids climb trees, but they sort of delivered a consistent feeling, I guess, not necessarily an escape, but just a cool place that I could go to. And that hasn't really changed, if I'm honest.

Dwayne (02:27.79)
Mm-hmm.

Dwayne (02:42.468)
A kind of a kind of respite.

Johnny (02:44.877)
Yeah, yeah, you could say that. It's like a return to a familiar place.

Dwayne (02:50.406)
So do you think that it was something that you, that even maybe perhaps was imparted energetically, like mystically almost or soulfully, that there's that element to trees for you or was it just being outside or what do you think about that?

Johnny (03:09.337)
I think that as you grow in life, your awareness, if you allow it to, kind of expands. So I mean, for me to say that it was some deeper connection at that age, it definitely wasn't at that time. But then, of course, now when you look back, hindsight gives you a little bit of clarity. I would just say like being in a forest or amongst the trees or in and around them always felt.

kind of right, I guess, safe, even though obviously it's not, like wandering around in the woods at dark is not safe. But it just felt familiar, I guess, or maybe comforting or something like that. And then now, knowing what I know and having the experiences that I've had, I think that it's very clear to those of us that spend enough time around there, like your awareness broadens and then you start to really understand things at a deeper level. And I would say now there's definitely a...

psycho spiritual connection that I have to them. But again, like with all those things, it's such an ethereal thing, it's hard to really like put your finger on it, you know?

Dwayne (04:16.246)
Yeah, I do know. I guess it sort of does come with age. I find it fascinating, the topic, and obviously it's one of the impetuses for the podcast. But I think at a very young age, we are that innocence, I guess we're often called. And the four agreement books, they talk about how at a young age that we're not veiled or separated from that.

that other world, the ethereal spiritual realm, which I think trees are a part of personally, but we come back to that later in life. And that's partly why I was asking the question, but no, absolutely, I think there is a...

Dwayne (05:01.994)
you know, there's something that's departed energetically. And as we know, you know, research being done, you know, that the chemicals released terpenes and so on by the trees that actually do calm our nervous system. So there's even, you know, physiological, biological evidence to the, for the reasons for it. But I think it's more than that too.

Johnny (05:21.093)
Yeah, I think so too. And like, I mean, there was a time where gravity was unexplainable, right? There was a time when the seasons were dictated by the sacrifices that you made. And then we, you know, we learn more. And then we realized that, you know, science can back up certain aspects of what we didn't understand at the time, you know? And I guess to relate that back, there is a tangible feeling, especially once you become familiar with trees that you get when you're around them.

Dwayne (05:33.529)
Hahaha

Dwayne (05:42.908)
Yeah.

Johnny (05:50.201)
It's like you getting to know somebody or you're, you bump into somebody who you haven't seen in a long time, but you pick it up right where you left off. It's like that, except you had that like long before you were here, I guess is another way that I can sometimes think about it. Actually one of like, you know, I'm not a religious guy, but we had the opportunity to climb some giant Sequoias in California. And I vividly remember being

like at the top of a nearly 300 foot tall tree thinking like, Oh, there's a, there's a wisdom here. You know what I mean? That I'm probably not really ready to understand, but it's here and I can feel it and there's something to it. And what was so cool about that trip is I spent a lot of time when we weren't doing what we were there to do, just walking around the forest with my friends who were like relatively, I guess you could say like uninitiated, like they weren't

Dwayne (06:25.996)
Yeah.

Dwayne (06:29.226)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Johnny (06:44.485)
really interested in forestry. They were interested in like sports and things like that. So as we walked around and I explained like, this is a sugar pine and this is how you can tell. And this is, you know, and then cool facts about giant Sequoia and have a look at the crown of that tree. Do you see why it's rounded? There's reasons for that. And then I pointed down at more al mushrooms that were popping up. And I had this like impromptu guided forest tour that I led in the middle of this place where up until then I'd basically never been. And I just remember finishing that day out.

Dwayne (07:09.826)
Yeah.

Johnny (07:12.889)
And like we were all really nervous because like what we were there to do was like kind of scary, but like we all went to, like we're hanging out at the house and all we're doing is just like getting our hippie nerd on, you know, like talking about trees and nature and stuff. And yeah, it's neat. It's such a multi multifaceted experience to spend as much intimate time around trees that, you know, guys like me and you and Tony and others get to, you know.

Dwayne (07:17.123)
Yeah.

Dwayne (07:23.15)
Thank you.

Dwayne (07:35.454)
Yeah. You know, your journey with animals and in the trees as a young lad, when did it transition into a working type thing for you? When did you find yourself actually earning money and being part of the arbor culture industry? How did that happen?

Johnny (07:56.037)
Yeah, so, you know, coming up in my early, well, I guess, you know, through my 11, 12s and then into my early teens, I was completely obsessed with mountain biking. So I ended up working at a bike shop and I was working at a bike shop and I vividly remember one day, it was a spring day, I would have been about 14 years old and my dad called me and said, look, you know, I got a job on a tree crew.

And a little bit of context, like my dad spent 30 plus years cleaning chicken processing plants. Like that was my first job, you know, like not great. And then he was cleaning trucks and he was all over the place and it, you know, it was, it was sort of an unstable situation, but I do remember some about that phone call kind of rang true because my dad was excited. Like, like he was like, John boy. That's what he calls me. He's like, like I got a job on a tree crew and there's these guys climbing trees and they sure make it look cool.

Dwayne (08:30.479)
Hahaha

Johnny (08:52.061)
and we're all getting paid to be here. And he was like, you should maybe come and check it out. And I was like, okay, well, you know, he's my dad, so I'm gonna listen to him. And I think I might've ridden my bike there to check it out on a lunch hour, or I managed to like check it out the next day or whatever. But I still remember the yard, I still remember the neighborhood, and I remember looking up and seeing the arborists at the time. I still know those arborists too, by the way, swinging around and I was like, man, this kind of makes a little bit of sense, you know? And so I applied for a job.

Dwayne (09:00.334)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Dwayne (09:11.38)
Oh

Johnny (09:21.725)
and got a job, Dragon Brush. And obviously, you know, I was working along with the arborist and my dad, and then at the time, the owner of the company and, you know, it was fun. It was, it was hard, but you know, you got that short term goal gratification every single day, every step of the day, right? Like you drag a branch to the chipper, blah, like, well, I worked out real good. And then you get a rake, you make the yard look nice and the trees look great. Like we have, we're so blessed in our job.

Dwayne (09:37.69)
Oh, I'm sorry.

Johnny (09:48.389)
because like it's just dopamine hit after dopamine hit because we get these short candles. So anyway, as a 14 year old kid, that's kind of a powerful experience. And then combined with, you know, the experiences that I'd had in and amongst trees, combined with a, you know, a certain personality type that lends itself to that type of activity, it seemed like a nice fit. So within a year I was climbing on that very farm where I had my first experiences being close to trees is where I learned how.

Dwayne (10:03.81)
Yeah.

Johnny (10:17.245)
to tie hitches and start using ropes to get around in the trees. I remember the big poplar that I learned in. And then it just, man, I never really looked back. There were a few winters where things got a little thin, and I got a little hungry, and I ended up in some other industries, such as insulating in the construction industry, apartment buildings in Edmonton and Red Deer, of all places. But it's the only job I ever quit, man. I remember.

Dwayne (10:30.958)
Thank you.

Dwayne (10:42.64)
It's the only job.

Johnny (10:45.101)
Waking up one day in Red Deer after having insulation dust all over my entire body. It's pissed cold. And I just thought to myself, I was like, I cannot let this become my life. So I quit on the spot, got on a Greyhound, Greyhounded my way back to Lethbridge, jumped into a car that I received after my grandfather died for like 500 bucks and then packed everything I owned in a Ford Taurus and drove to Vancouver Island because that's where I heard.

Dwayne (10:50.446)
Thank you.

Dwayne (10:58.542)
Thanks for watching!

Dwayne (11:02.606)
I'm sorry.

Dwayne (11:08.513)
Ha ha ha!

Johnny (11:14.797)
where there were big trees. So I ended up in Vancouver Island in February of 2007, had no plan whatsoever aside from the fact that that's where big trees were. And I found Davy's phone number in the yellow pages because remember we're talking 07, right? Like no iPhones yet. So I yellow paged it and made a phone call. And I was like, listen, I'm here. I got no plan. I will climb. I remember telling them I'll climb in the wind.

Dwayne (11:26.785)
Hahaha.

Dwayne (11:32.382)
Yeah, yeah.

Johnny (11:44.101)
and I'll climb in the rain and snow because that's all we do in Southern Alberta. Like if you're not going to climb in crappy conditions, you're not going to get paid. So I was like, I'll do it. And like, I know you may or may not be looking, I'll work a day for free. So they were like, Jesus, who is this kid? So I sat down with Keith and Lloyd, Lloyd Rumbolt, shout out to Lloyd. I was like, look, I want like

Dwayne (11:49.582)
Thank you.

Dwayne (12:01.858)
Yeah. Ha ha.

Johnny (12:05.645)
I know I want to do this and I got no plan, but you guys seem to have like a pretty legit operation here. So like, what do you, what do you think? And they're like, we'll see you on Monday. And that was it, man. Like from there forward, I just never turned back and I'm pretty stoked about it.

Dwayne (12:19.631)
So do you remember your very first climbing harness and what you were climbing off a rope and a hitch and take like oh so tell us about that.

Johnny (12:26.205)
Oh yeah. Oh yeah, of course. I mean, so I did learn on an eye to eye press it with a pulley, micro pulley on a weaver leather. There was this real hot shit harness coming out pretty quick called the master two. I was like super stoked about that. Of course this is so back when I was 14, like I was, it was still, you know, leather harnesses make the most of what you got.

Dwayne (12:36.554)
Wow.

Dwayne (12:41.718)
Ha ha.

Dwayne (12:45.282)
Ha ha!

Dwayne (12:56.632)
Yeah.

Johnny (12:56.701)
Um, but shortly after learning on the eye to eye, uh, then I learned, you know, it was a Blake's hitch. I think I, I think I'm taught line hitch was just before my time. You know what I mean? But, uh, we, I spent a lot of time on, um, on a Blake's and then a lot of time, obviously in leather harnesses, always a zoo bat, uh, first chainsaw 3 45.

Dwayne (13:07.658)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Johnny (13:21.849)
That was the lightest, most ergonomic surgical saw out there was the 345. And then in terms of rope, I see the Arbor Master, the Samson, the red, like the black, red, white. And then I seem to remember a lot of true blue in those days. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Dwayne (13:36.502)
Yeah, yeah, Arbor Mastery.

Dwayne (13:43.186)
Oh yeah, okay 12th Street and the Blue Street too, it's quite popular.

Johnny (13:47.833)
Yeah. And then the blue, so I remember, uh, Davey got me blue streak. So years later, blue straight, you know, that became the line, you know, with a big eye. I remember I had a big eye. So it was girth hitching a lot of carabiners back then.

Dwayne (13:52.014)
Great.

Dwayne (13:57.174)
Yeah.

Dwayne (14:02.382)
Yeah, you know, it was the blue streak, it's interesting the story there because, you know, Bob Webber and Ken Palmer, it was Bob, Arbor Master was Bob Webber's brainchild. And Ken was kind of a sidekick. And then it, you know, things happened and it ended up being Ken taking it over, kind of moving on with it and ripped off. But the very beginning, they were, everybody was, see the first 16 strand rope was made by New England. It was New England Safety Blue.

and it had a blue core and it was called, but it wasn't white. Well orange and white was the first coloured rope. See the very first thing that they could do was this white right. So that was, that was like when they came out with that orange in it, it was like holy crap the first time colour was ever introduced and everyone was like wow and nobody else was really making a 16 strand line. Samson was making Arborplex which was a

Johnny (14:30.541)
Now, that's right, blue core, but it was like orange and white, or was it just white on the outside?

Johnny (14:38.985)
Oh, okay, yeah, yeah. I bought some of that stuff too.

Johnny (14:50.961)
Let's go.

Dwayne (15:00.182)
Rip and Ken went to New England and said, we'd like to partner with you guys. We're training. And New England just said, yeah, whatever, guys. Not interested. Good luck.

Johnny (15:11.853)
No future in that. Come on, your industry's dead in the water. Ha ha ha.

Dwayne (15:15.306)
Well, they were making the rope, but they just didn't feel they needed any help, right? And Sampson for somehow, I don't remember all the circumstance, they heard about it and said, we'd like to make a rope with you guys. And that's what Blue Streak was. That's, and you know, they said to them, you need something like, this is all we're going to climb on. We're not going to climb on Arboreplex because that's crap. We're going to climb on this. And if you make something like it, we'll use it. And that's how Blue Streak came into being. And you know,

Johnny (15:29.329)
Yeah, okay.

Dwayne (15:43.73)
I can't imagine what New England must have thought 10 years later because it outsold it by a long shot after a while. It was pretty cool. It's funny because Zampson was the leader that first made synthetic rope, then New England blew the doors off him with the safety blue and then comes around to make him blue streak. Now there's so many options, it's ridiculous.

Johnny (15:49.749)
Yeah, that was some high performance stuff back then.

Johnny (16:09.373)
I think it's awesome. I mean, I've definitely gone down the rope nerd tunnel like deep and it's, man, rope is so cool. I like, I'm such a nerd when it comes to rope. I'd like as much information as I can find. I just eat it up and it's cool to hear the history and it's even more exciting to see where we're headed.

Dwayne (16:16.331)
Thanks.

Dwayne (16:29.238)
Well, I think you're even, there's a certain element to really qualify you or to earn you a different type of status or moniker within the realm of agriculture development. And one of those is having developed a harness. There is not that many people that have had a hand in convincing a manufacturer that they got the idea behind the

the next best thing for harness, you know, because the tough thing to reinvent, you know, I remember Buck would always talk about that. It's like, is it really different? But yet it is. So, and you did that. Like you, you've reached that pinnacle of convincing a manufacturer, you know, so your zeal, your enthusiasm, your knowledge, and actually producing a product, a custom harness, that was your kind of brainchild, if I'm not mistaken.

Johnny (17:01.799)
for sure.

Johnny (17:22.157)
little bit. Like, I mean, I was involved in the early stages of basically technical feedback. I mean, the folks at Adelrid, they're geniuses beyond like, you know, anything that I could come up with. But they had some ideas. And then I was fortunate enough to join the North American rep and then head of development down in Oregon. And we tried out the early versions of the tree recs harness. So the ideas were, you know, already in place. I don't I don't have any like claim to any of the real innovation in that harness. But there were some

um, corrections or some feedback that I provided that, um, has since been received and we're going to see some updates that harness, which reflects some of that feedback and, uh, and also want to have a whole of other products as well. And I've actually been really fortunate. Like I've, I've just been in the right place at the right time, multiple times. And, uh, folks, um, I guess you could say, you know, they, they at least honored my opinion or took the time to listen to it and

Dwayne (18:05.838)
Interesting.

Johnny (18:21.261)
I think that thanks to you and ArbCan, I was, I guess you could say, empowered with the ability to clearly express myself in certain times. So because of that, certain skill sets have lent them certain opportunities, I guess you could say. But I definitely didn't come up with the idea of the TreeRex, although one thing that I've been a huge supporter of because of injuries that I've sustained not working, but in extracurricular activities.

Dwayne (18:46.473)
Okay.

Johnny (18:51.117)
A harness, a harness isn't necessarily good if it's light and a harness isn't just good if it can be customized and it's not good if it's just safe, right? There's gotta be a blend. There's gotta be a happy space that gets arrived at with that, just like with just about any other product that I can think of, there's a functionality, you know, conversation to have, but then there's also like a utility.

And those are two different things, right? There's a utilitarian way to go about things. There's a pragmatic approach. And then there's of course the safety end of things. So working with Adelrid has been really encouraging in that I can walk in there with at this stage, you know, 20 plus years of experience and I can get into something and I can draw on that experience really quickly and say like, well, in this scenario, this is gonna hurt or this is not gonna be, or so, or this is gonna work really good. So one thing that was really important to me,

long before I worked with Adelrid was the ability to adjust the center of mass, you know, where you sit in your harness. So one way to describe that would be like the balance between leg strap tension and lateral tension. So the space between your forward Ds and where your bridge is going to attach. Because from an early point in my career, because I was switching harnesses and stuff, working for different companies, you know, I really quickly realized what I liked and what I didn't like. And, and

Dwayne (19:54.318)
Mm-hmm.

Dwayne (20:02.646)
Mm-hmm.

Johnny (20:13.977)
like tangible objective reasons why that was the case, depending on your climbing style and the moves that you make. And then the injuries came in. So it was like just perfect timing to start working with a company that was receptive to that, that was able to execute on some actually kind of complicated ideas.

Dwayne (20:20.342)
Mm-hmm.

Dwayne (20:31.926)
You know, it's interesting how, you know, they say that which doesn't kill us makes us stronger. And, you know, I think of, again, the tree analogy of, you know, the wounds and damages that trees sustain and how it shapes what the trees like in the future. It's reaction to various stimulus and how that, you know, forms who what a tree is and who we are as people. And, you know, you, you know, I'm curious, you know, those of you that know, you know, you're involved in other

Johnny (20:49.189)
100%.

Dwayne (21:02.75)
activities that even probably challenge the dynamic scope of tree climbing as far as adrenaline and not even you know and I got careful how I say this because you and I have talked before and I really appreciated the answer you gave me about why you like the aerial acrobatic type stuff you do the skydiving the wingsuit flying particularly because it isn't you know

And then what that has, you know, some of the consequences of that and how that's played into your wound would as a person, those experiences, because I think you're astuteness to what you're talking about in harness of development, you know, that a large that comes from what happened, you know, that, you know, and without that, you wouldn't even have the consideration to those things that you do now. You know, so maybe you could just share a little bit about how that

Johnny (21:50.509)
Exactly. You nailed it.

Johnny (21:57.626)
Exactly.

Dwayne (22:02.726)
experience has shaped you, the tree you are today, if you're willing to go there.

Johnny (22:08.417)
Oh yeah. Yeah. Like I'm a hundred percent at peace. Like I'm, I'm happier now than I've ever been in my entire life. And I will, I will say, you know, the irony of course is that like the best thing that ever happened to me was breaking damn near every bone in my body at once. You know what I mean? Like it was, it was a pretty transformative experience. And uh, I actually, like it was rough. Like you want to start talking about rock bottom. Like there, there were moments.

during and shortly afterward and then even years afterward where rock bottom was something that I was like surely I've hit it at this stage but in hindsight I am like forever thankful for I mean you know the various mountain bike accidents plus you know the big one where I had a total malfunction of a base jumping system that left me you know broken I think it was like 14 or 15 broken bones in a river you know

kicking and swimming life with, you know, you know, I didn't have good chances, you know, and I definitely remember what it felt like to kind of have a choice as to whether or not I was going to stick around or piece out, you know, and I did choose to stick around. And not because I'm like exceptionally like hard or anything like that. But you know, I was just really blessed in that moment to be able to make the choice. And, and here we are.

You know, a little over 10 years later, because it happened May 9th, 2013. And here we are, 2023, right? 10 years ago, I was on my deathbed. And, uh, you know, without those injuries and without that rapid key, you know, decal or recalibration of priorities. Um, I don't really know where I would have ended up because frankly, like a lot of the things that I was doing were half exciting, but then half forced relief.

Dwayne (23:49.795)
Yeah.

Johnny (24:01.881)
you know, from an experience that I just really wasn't, I guess, interested in having. You know, the regular life thing has never really appealed. So it was always neat to be able to have like such a consistent, reliable way, you know, to not escape it, but just, you know, experience things in a different way, I guess you could say.

Dwayne (24:25.23)
Hmm.

Dwayne (24:30.307)
Yeah, I think it can relate, you know, in my own way. And I remember asking you one time about it. And, you know, I remember what I remember from it. My history of it was that my story of what you told me was that for you, it makes you become focused and hyper-vigilant.

and plan and that's what the thrill for you was. You said there's people that do this activity like base jumping for example, because they just need that thrill. And you said, of course that element's there, but for you it's the planning, the leading up to it, the weather, the decision to go and when that decision made, the timing of, and everything that has to happen in such precise order. And then for you, that's what gave you that.

Johnny (25:19.077)
Yes.

Dwayne (25:22.678)
That's what kept you going back. Is that still what you would say today?

Johnny (25:22.789)
Yep. Yeah.

And, and even more so now with everything else that I do in my life. So, you know, not everything relates back to childhood trauma, but I have always been, even as a young kid, just obsessed with the way that things work. So you might, my literally like my earliest, like memories are me taking things apart and putting them back together. Like the amount of time that I spent with Lego was ridiculous, you know? And.

Dwayne (25:37.966)
Mm-hmm.

Johnny (25:57.549)
If I get my hands on anything, a VCR, you know, whatever, I needed to try to figure out the mechanisms within it. And then, you know, then it became bikes. So like the fascination of being able to like build and create a thing in the world that then you can use to have experiences, like holy cow, talk about like a pure experience, right? Like what's so crazy about ideas, what's so crazy about everything that's around us in this moment is that it all,

didn't exist at one point and then it did. It was an idea and it was brought forth into reality. But it had to start somewhere. You know, like that's a fascinating thing to think about. So how that relates forward is like, well, what if we did that with the highest maintenance fees possible? Then you might be onto something. And you know, with mountain biking, as that progressed into rock climbing, as that progressed into looking off the top of really big mountains and thinking like,

Dwayne (26:31.874)
Thank you.

Yeah.

Thanks.

Johnny (26:55.789)
I've already climbed it and there's no way I could jump off of this with my mountain bike. So there's got to be a new way to explore this realm. And if all I need to do is learn, like that's easy. Just get me in front of the information. I'll learn it. And then this whole world, right, just becomes this giant playground that you get to experience. And the only thing that's holding you back is how much you know about stuff. We'll just go no more stuff. So then as that transit, I know it's such a childish way to look at it, right? Like it's also simple. But

Dwayne (27:19.972)
Sorry.

Johnny (27:25.613)
I don't know, maybe that's just the way that I think. But then when things get like mortally serious, then you get to really question like, do I know my shit or not? Right, like that imposter syndrome by nature goes away. Because if you go out into the world and you find a mountain and on that mountain is enough of a vertical aspect.

Dwayne (27:35.222)
Yeah.

Dwayne (27:42.71)
Yeah.

Johnny (27:52.113)
that you might be able to like enter your body into it and survive it. That's a pretty special experience. So then to have the know-how of finding it and then getting on top of it, cause that's not easy, right? You got to have like a certain amount of technical prowess just to get to the top of these cliffs or whatever. So then you get to the top and then you run the numbers. Okay. Well like prevailing winds are going to be this way and this is how long I'm going to have and I know my equipment. And then there's all of like the interesting, like text style-y, you know, calculations that go into that.

Dwayne (28:06.338)
Yeah.

Johnny (28:21.253)
And then it all culminates into this really interesting problem, like math problem that you get to then solve. And if you do a good enough job solving it, your body becomes the initiation of the, of the equation. Right? So like the way that I always thought about it is like, there was a math problem or a physics problem ahead of me. And I've done everything that I could to address, like number one, the learning of how to do the math initially anyway.

Dwayne (28:42.519)
Thank you.

Johnny (28:48.025)
and then plugging in all the variables to the best of my knowledge, the best of my ability, and then did I do a good enough job? And the ultimate test is to put yourself, your own body, your own person into the equation, and then run the test. And when you come out with the answer you expected, there's a feeling that you get which is really, really exciting because you've learned something. There's nothing more...

like interesting in life than learning a new thing. So what I get to do for like a living, I'm so blessed, like I'm the luckiest guy in the whole world, is I get to plug my body, my life into these equations and learn all the time. So a new harness is just another opportunity to learn something, a new rope construction, a new knot, a new way to design a parachute container. All of these are really interesting.

Dwayne (29:22.134)
So.

Johnny (29:47.073)
opportunities to learn something, you know, and then you get this tangible feedback. Like it's the best thing in the whole world.

Dwayne (29:50.242)
Yeah.

Dwayne (29:54.442)
Well yeah, and the success of survival, that's a pretty motivating factor in some cases.

Johnny (30:01.369)
Yeah. I mean, you know, you had alluded to like the adrenaline and dopamine and then all that kind of stuff. And, you know, smarter people than me have done the chemistry on this. But I will say that I do not. I don't feel fulfilled when like every hair on my body standing up and I'm just jonesing and vibrating because I survive something. That's not where the fun comes in for me. The fun comes in from doing the homework and then presenting the assignment and then getting.

potentially an A plus on it. Did I do a good job? You did a good job and today you get to live or today you get to get paid or today you get to, you know, watch light bulbs light up above the heads of your students. Like each one of those is another like powerful motivating factor and they're all repeatable. So that's a woman. You know what I mean? I like in a lot of ways, I don't know what the meaning of life is and that like definitely don't consult me on that. But to me, that process and that result.

Dwayne (30:44.259)
Okay.

Johnny (31:00.909)
has to have something to do with it.

Dwayne (31:04.778)
Yeah, and it brings a lot of perspective too. I've always often wondered how someone that is as widely gifted as you are and has so many talents and experiences, like things that you enjoy doing. And one of them is, I'll never forget the day you and I were going to do an APCO chainsaw course. It's not necessarily the most glamorous class to deliver, right? But it's a great, it's chainsaw training and I love to teach and I can relate on that level very much.

But you had, you know, you met me at the office and you had just finished, you know, jumping, uh, howling and you'd come up and said, oh yeah, this morning I went and jumped in, you know, you, you ran up, jumped down, landed at your car and drove up to meet me and we were driving up to grand Prairie to do a course and I thought, man, what a wild varying, it just not, not everyone that does base jumping also goes and teaches that lineman how to be safe with the chainsaw, you know? And

And I always thought it was pretty fascinating. And I knew it was your passion. Like I didn't deny, I couldn't deny. I knew you were sincere in pursuing this. You were enjoying yourself equally in both situations. And I always found it fascinating.

Johnny (32:16.889)
Yeah. And that's the key. So like, some people can only be happy if they're jumping. But like that person inevitably is going to hit the water doing 90. You know what I mean? If there's only one thing in life that really like turns you on, that's the only thing that you're going to do. And then if you just run the numbers, eventually, you're going to keep doing that into a situation where maybe it's not sustainable anymore.

Dwayne (32:24.643)
Great.

Dwayne (32:30.222)
Great.

Johnny (32:44.909)
And then the world comes knocking and the universe has a lesson that's ready for you. But if you just like broaden your horizons a little bit and zoom out, right. And then figure out, well, what is the experience here that I'm going for? Like if it's just the adrenaline, unfortunately I have bad news and like I've got, you know, I've got a lot of friends that have passed away because maybe that was their approach. Now I can't speak for them and I never would, but

You know, I've met some people that were pretty motivated on the chemical response, and like, they're no longer here. Whereas there's a fulfillment thing that I think needs to come into it. And I don't think that fulfillment, like the deep kind of fulfillment, I don't really think it comes from a simple chemical reaction. I think it's like the culmination of a whole bunch of things. So when I'm in class and I'm flowing, right.

thanks to honestly a lot of the gifts that you and Andrew and the other folks that are kind of provided, I can get that same level of like fulfillment. But the thing is contrast is so important. So, you know, for instance, working with North American training solutions, there were times where I was on the road for like five weeks. And after three weeks, I could tell that like my excitement and engagement, like it just wasn't quite the same. It wasn't quite as organic.

But then I would step away and I would go and teach wingsuiting. I'm still teaching, but at that time I was teaching wingsuiting and I'd come out of it like, oh, I'm just stoked. And then I'd go for some jumps and then I'd go and hang out with, you know, at the time, my girlfriend who's now my wife on the beach. And like, I started to realize that like, you can feel like fully fulfilled and present as long as you open your mind to that being possible, right? It isn't just the one thing that delivers it, it's a state. So how can you use

everything to deliver that state. Well, now you're on to something right? Because, like, if like a $4 beer and a frisbee on the beach can deliver the same level of happiness as base jumping from a 300 foot tall giant Sequoia, now you're sustainable, right? So now life can totally be fun. And you don't have to risk your life every single time you want to have some fun, which is like a pretty good thing to have in the repertoire. But you know, earlier this year,

Dwayne (34:59.974)
Mm-hmm.

Dwayne (35:03.978)
Thank you.

Yeah.

Johnny (35:08.921)
You know, I had let Arbcan know that I just needed to step back just a little bit from the teaching. And it wasn't because I was doing too much. Like, I mean, I could never dream of, you know, keeping up with your schedule or even Neil's schedule now at this stage. Like it's insanity. Like you guys are, you guys are amazing. You're angels. You're gifted. Um, but for me, I just needed, I needed to pull focus and put it somewhere else so that I could rediscover that excitement. And I did. And like, man.

Dwayne (35:13.19)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Dwayne (35:24.382)
Yes.

Dwayne (35:28.554)
Ha ha ha.

Dwayne (35:36.595)
Thanks.

Johnny (35:38.225)
This year has been hilarious. I went to Northwest territories, back to back to Germany, back to back up to Toronto and then out to Calgary, essentially teaching every single step of the way. And it was just as fun as it was the first time that I delivered at Co as a lead trainer with you. So yeah, it's pretty cool. I'm so lucky, man. Like I'm just the luckiest guy in the whole.

Dwayne (35:52.816)
Mm-hmm.

Dwayne (36:00.234)
You know, it's a theme you hear a lot when people discover those things. And I think the variability, you know, the being able to find it, you know, being able to be present and appreciate what's right in front of you at any given point in time is, it's something that we have a choice in somehow, we somehow have a choice to discover it and it's there for us all. And I don't know what, you know, I've only recently, I would say in the last couple of years where I started to be able to discover it.

at least the variability. I got myself caught in a loop of thinking I had, I found it in only one solution, you know, and not literally. But, you know, it is possible and it is, and Tony, I think, you know, you sum this up in a recent conversation you mentioned about, you know, finding a way to, I can't remember what, the word you used, but it's along these lines of

Johnny (36:38.065)
Yeah.

Dwayne (36:58.198)
of not having different ways to enjoy yourself. Is that fair to say, Tony?

Tony (37:05.632)
To regulate, you know, to spiritually, emotionally, physically, to an extent. I think everybody kind of understands the like physical regulation. Like you work hard all day, you go home, you rest, drink water. You know, I think everybody gets that. But I think the other aspects of it, the emotional regulation and spiritual meaning and, you know, the sense of something bigger, right? Say when I say spiritual, I'm almost talking about a sense of awe, right? However you define that is up to you, but having ways to, to regulate that.

Dwayne (37:07.062)
Yeah, that's it.

Johnny (37:29.475)
Mm-hmm.

Tony (37:34.596)
And, and to renew that, right? You know, the, the saying in, in weight training is if you don't recover, you won't, right? I think that's true in many things. If you don't take time to recover, you won't. And you know, that, that's.

Johnny (37:47.673)
Yeah, the man who doesn't have five minutes to meditate is the man that needs an hour.

Tony (37:55.7)
Yeah. And, uh, you know, it's funny, you know, we started the conversation like, you know, when you started to find meaning in trees and I thought about, think about that a lot, just not only doing this podcast, but just, well, I think a lot and, uh, you know, it's, I would, I had originally thought that, you know, the meaning of, of like that, what forests are and what trees are in my life only came about after a certain amount of time and they had to, and that's part of it, but I think it's bigger. You don't know what you have until it's gone. And I didn't realize the meaning.

that trees had for me just in a holistic sense until I wasn't in the trees all day anymore because of my career choices, right? I made a conscious effort not to do production tree work every day. I wanted to do other things in life. And then I realized when it was gone, I'm like, oh shit, like I've never much been into meditation because I've never needed it. Because my working in a tree was, it was right there. And then when I wasn't doing that tree work anymore, it's like, well shit, how did this happen? You know, I was like, damn.

Johnny (38:43.101)
Right. Because it was always right there. Yep.

Tony (38:54.572)
So I think it's a twofold thing. It's experience and wisdom you'd like to think as we move through this world and travel down our path that you gain a little bit of knowledge here and there. But then I think it's also like if it's always there, you don't miss it until it's gone.

Johnny (39:07.113)
I agree emphatically.

Dwayne (39:11.082)
Yeah, you don't know what you got.

Johnny (39:13.073)
Life is in the contrast, right guys? And the context, right? There are lessons ever present around us all the time. But really we're the ones that are kinda getting in the way as to whether or not it gets received. So then you go away, right, the alchemist, and then you come back and it was always there. But now you're ready to see it. And it's kinda cool, isn't it, that like we prune trees.

Dwayne (39:23.226)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree.

Johnny (39:39.269)
And if you do that right, you're going to prune a tree several times over the course of the year. And then, you know, the classic analogy is the man in the river, but maybe it's even more appropriate in the trees. And like, it's not the same man returning to the same tree or the same woman returning to the same tree to prune it again. It's a new tree and it's a new person. It's kind of cool how things evolve like that, I guess.

Dwayne (39:39.502)
Thank you.

Tony (40:04.26)
Yeah, I think you're right. I think the tree for that is a better analogy than the river, right? Because for people that don't know the quote, it's like you never cross the same river twice, because the river's changed and you've changed as well too. You never prune the same tree twice, and you never climb the same tree twice, even if you're not working on it.

Dwayne (40:17.369)
Right here.

Johnny (40:21.834)
Yeah. You know, it might be the same physical manifestation of, you know, sequestered carbon, but that tree has been through a lot more since you last saw it. You know, the seasons, the winds, the changes, the climate, the people, the equipment, the whatever else, the car that crashed into it, right? And then you come back and you know, you've both changed.

But you get reacquainted and I don't know, like I mean, I can't imagine that this job is like that for everybody, but you know, maybe we choose to make it that and it just makes it that much more fun.

Dwayne (40:45.099)
me.

Dwayne (40:54.438)
I think people that have that have like kept it up for you know a decade or two or it's made you know It becomes more than just a job. I think for them that they experience exactly what we're talking about But you know, I love the analogy of go ahead. I love the analogy of the tree, you know that like it's the same tree But sorry, my dogs decided he's having a bit of a fit here. So I apologize for the background noise, but

Johnny (41:08.033)
Yeah, when I speak, come on. No, you go.

Dwayne (41:23.462)
A tree changes, and you climbed that tree 10 years ago, but the storms, the damage, just like humans. It's the same tree, but different. And to me, the tree's an example of that survival, like trying to withstand the force of gravity and wind in an upright manner as best it can, and absorbing and integrating and sealing those defects and injuries, and just making it a part of itself.

And how much like human, how much growth of humans that's like that.

Johnny (42:01.517)
Yeah. And then of course there would be the added variable of constantly trying to achieve balance, which is maybe another powerful analogy, not to anthropomorphize trees or anything, but you know, it's something to consider. Like we're always fighting for balance. And like Tony, to your earlier point in terms of, you know, engagement with the different pillars of a life, be it, you know, you get a certain physical satisfaction from doing our job and then you get a certain spiritual

satisfaction if you're open to that type of thing. But down the road, you start to realize, like, holy smokes, there's a lot of pillars to a cool life. You know, like you got to have your finances on point. You got to have your community on point, your family and your friends. And you know, there's a career and then there's a legacy that you need to think of. But I also need to stay healthy and I want to stay fit. And then I also still want to live a long time. And like all of a sudden you realize you're trying to juggle 15 different pillars. Well, that's kind of what a tree is doing all the time too. And what's cool is that when we see...

Dwayne (42:57.994)
Yeah, yeah.

Johnny (43:00.481)
a well formed tree, we see a balanced, right? A well developed tree, it's got good taper, it's got a solid foundation, it has this exponential decreasing in size of limbs down to branches, down to twigs. And you know, there's this cool, like there's just so many analogies. And again, like we teach.

Is it a coincidence that there's trees at the center of almost every origin story of culture and religion and everything? Like probably not. Like they're a powerful, ever present source of like wisdom and observational education, right? It's just, it's pretty cool that we get to call them part of our job.

Dwayne (43:39.434)
Well, yeah, and that the older they are, regardless of size, but the older they are, the more meaning that has. You know, because maybe it's subconsciously or whatever, spiritually we realize that they've had to live this life, however many, and we can't really relate because, you know, it's a thousand years or it's a hundred years or it's 700 years, like, you know.

Johnny (43:42.237)
Thank you.

Johnny (43:49.661)
100%.

Dwayne (44:07.362)
Imagine if we had to live that long and what would happen to us and the things we'd have to endure and What we'd become yeah, that's really cool And I like to I guess I hadn't quite put the perspective of the balance the equalizing load You know and you know what an example also of contrast you know changing of seasons

Johnny (44:27.037)
Yeah.

Johnny (44:31.661)
Yeah, so as a young man or young woman, I think it's very easy to just hate things. Like I hate the summer, it's always so hot and so dry, or I hate the winter, it's always so cold. But then like, you know, you grow older and you start looking out the window and you're like, you know, the snow's pretty and autumn is pretty and the spring is really pretty and the sun is enjoyable. And it's like, all of a sudden you stop focusing on the things that you're petty little, you know.

Dwayne (44:43.543)
Yeah.

Dwayne (44:51.52)
Yeah.

Johnny (44:57.333)
existence doesn't like and you start to appreciate what's bigger and better. And, you know, to your point about like the thousand year thing. So like I spend a lot of time like intimately in connection with mountains and mountains, like they've been there for eons. Like we're talking tens of thousands, a hundred thousand years. And then you interact with trees that are thousands of years old, like giant sequoias, right? But then you interact with like the pests.

Dwayne (45:11.47)
break.

Johnny (45:27.245)
in a tree and their entire experience is over within, in some cases, a single season. In other cases, we're talking days, like a month or two, right? So then you start to realize like, well, hold on, like there must be like a relative kind of perspective to approach this from. Because when you hike on a mountain, for instance, like the time that I hiked up and jumped off before I came to teach, that mountain was there a long time before I got there and I

Dwayne (45:36.342)
Yep.

Dwayne (45:44.409)
Thank you.

Dwayne (45:50.36)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Johnny (45:56.961)
if there is any consciousness associated with it, watches the seasons pass and the years past like the way that we watch seconds past. But then conversely, you watch a bug and you see and you think like that existence is so puny, right? Like that, what could that bug ever possibly learn over the course of 30 days? But then you realize, well, you are the bug to the mountain. You are the bug to the giant Sequoia. So

Dwayne (46:17.678)
Thanks for watching!

Thank you.

Johnny (46:23.641)
You know, when an ant crawls up your shin and makes you itch and you flick it off. Well, a tree that is thousands of years old with an arborist in it has an ant in it, right? And all of the culmination of all your experiences and your hopes and your dreams and your loved ones and your enemies and stuff, it all exists within that ant, which if the tree could just brush you off. Right? Like it teaches you the relativism of things. And I think that as you get older, you start to appreciate the fact that like

Dwayne (46:43.191)
Get the tree coaxed.

Johnny (46:52.217)
You are simultaneously living a huge life and also a tiny little sliver of existence at the same time, which is cool.

Dwayne (47:03.171)
Yeah, I can definitely relate. I like that analogy. I think though the one area what pops into my mind, unlike the flickage of the antony, I think back to my time spent in the temple in Thailand with Mok Saratchi and do harm to nothing. And I remember we were doing some cleanup in the temple yard, which was something we did every afternoon. And there was these...

Johnny (47:24.206)
Hmm.

Dwayne (47:31.694)
it was like a centipede or some type of, you know, ground critter insect, but had quite intense pinchers and it pinched him on the toe because they are you're doing everything barefoot right and uh he made like he exclaimed which was strange for him to have like to hear ah like a comment like that out of a monk's rare and then you know we me and the couple guys are helping him notice that he had and this thing had latched onto his toe and it was pinching and like

It wasn't drawing blood, but this thing was biting him, right? And you could see his immediate instinct was to like hit it or swack it, brush it off, right? But he didn't want to hurt it. And that came into play and he carefully grabbed it. Quite quickly though, like there was a sense of urgency and then he cast it off, but he didn't injure it. I think that having that quality.

in us and it's just beginning to develop in me where, and I think trees have it far greater than that. Like the tree doesn't brush us off. The tree takes us in and makes us, allows us to be part of it for that short time. And you know, when I get, when I'm wise and old enough to let that ant just make its trek and not feel compelled to throw it away or to brush it off, maybe I'll get to that.

Johnny (48:44.017)
Hmm.

Dwayne (49:00.95)
Sentientism a trees display maybe you know and yeah, I don't know

Johnny (49:04.185)
Well, I would just say, like, I'm very careful in the way that I describe that. And you would have noticed that I said brush it off, but didn't squish it. And it's for that reason, because the entire point that you just made, I'm hyper conscious of because of what my job is. By nature, I cut down a lot of trees, man. And in fact, by nature, just teaching the how many people were in that course, eight? Well, seven by the end.

Dwayne (49:14.31)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dwayne (49:21.806)
Great.

Dwayne (49:32.706)
Yeah.

Johnny (49:33.661)
PTRR, so production tree removal and rigging, we did a lot of harm to a handful of trees, the kind of harm that those trees will never recover from. Now,

Dwayne (49:40.643)
Yep.

Great.

Johnny (49:46.357)
do we look at the trees as individuals or do we look at the trees as part of a system? That's one aspect of it. Also, those trees are maybe sacrificing themselves for the greater good. That's another way to justify our actions, right? But I think the key there is that you look at the whole picture. And if you can zoom out and you can, I guess, come to terms with what you're doing, you decide whether or not it's being done with malicious intent or reactive intent.

Dwayne (50:01.645)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Johnny (50:15.621)
or with the concept of like the infinite game. And it's really only by considering this like, cause I have a lot of time to think, like let's be honest, like Tony, you and me buddy, we spend a lot of time in our own heads. It's the nature of our personality types, but I can say that I'm at peace with the actions that I have to take in life, even if that means cutting down a tree because I've done everything that I can do.

Dwayne (50:18.851)
Right.

Dwayne (50:29.865)
Yeah

Johnny (50:43.645)
to ensure that those trees get recycled or upcycled. I also realize that they're part of a system, just like I'm part of the system. And I'm conscious enough to know that I get this meat vehicle for 87.5 years, a hundred if I'm lucky, you know? And then it's ashes to ashes and dust to dust. So I don't squish ants, I don't poison ants. I don't use raid in trees. I figure out ways to get the wasp nest down, but that's just my choice. That said, that said.

Dwayne (50:57.763)
Yeah.

Dwayne (51:08.354)
Yeah.

Johnny (51:12.045)
If it's a choice between my kid and a rattlesnake, bye rattlesnake, right? So, you know, I get what you're saying. And I think that it's also appropriate to be hyper conscious. Now the monk that got his toe bitten. Once he got it off, what did he do? Right? I'm sure he set it outside.

Dwayne (51:16.866)
Yeah.

Dwayne (51:29.334)
Well, he just, no, he just threw it, we were outside, right? So he just, he just sat on the side. Anywhere? No.

Johnny (51:32.653)
Yeah, okay. So we just, you know, off to the side it went. He didn't need to squish it. He didn't need to kill it. He just needed to, you know, no longer be attached to it.

Dwayne (51:40.766)
Yeah, and I think you hit the nail on the head. I don't know that if given the circumstance, if it was necessary, it's do harm. And I think there's a key in there. If you're maliciously, as you said, or intending harm, that's different than you have to do something for another reason, right? And

Johnny (52:00.925)
Exactly.

Dwayne (52:02.062)
And that's where it comes down to. It comes down to again the intended. It's very much like you were talking about earlier. It's what is your intention or purpose? And like how you find joy. Do you find mowing the lawn meaningless and boring or can you find joy in that? Because you're outside. Yeah.

Johnny (52:10.141)
Yeah, what's driving it.

Johnny (52:19.901)
because you're both right. Both of those people are right, right? That's what's so cool.

Dwayne (52:26.482)
Yeah, yeah. And non-attachment or non-judgmentalism is a big part of that. Being able to not, you know, put on to others what you think is the way you would do it, right? And not make that an issue is another gift or challenge that's part of, I think, maturity. And that doesn't necessarily mean how old you are, right? I think some people...

Johnny (52:46.061)
No, so you taught me that. I mean, while you and Andrew both, you did, I would hope that you did a good job teaching me that because I do like to embody that, but the intention is really what matters. And I think that as like a young man or a young trainer or a young person in a leadership role, you really want the credit, right? Because it feels good to be that guy. But then you later realize that it's not really about who, it's about what. Like what was the experience that you delivered?

And maybe it just takes practice or maybe it just takes repetition. Um, but I can say that I think that I've learned at this stage that, and maybe it's because I've actually received some credit and I realized that maybe it isn't the end all and be all, I don't know, but I really do think that the intention is to deliver a net positive experience, you know, be that as a trainer or be that as a father, be that as a husband or as a friend. So if that's the infinite game and you just start every interaction with that.

Dwayne (53:16.686)
Thank you.

Dwayne (53:33.006)
Mm.

Dwayne (53:38.464)
Thank you.

Johnny (53:46.669)
I guess core value. You really can't lose, I don't think. I feel like you must be doing it for the right reason if that's the case. Even if it means pushing a bug or cutting down a tree.

Dwayne (53:50.67)
Yeah.

Dwayne (53:57.413)
I agree. Yeah.

Tony (53:58.672)
Yeah, I think it's important to, and you mentioned the term of balance and I've always kind of, I always bristle it. I prefer the term rhythm. And I think it works better because when you say something's in balance, like I cut down trees, now I should plant 10 trees. But that's just like, I had two bad days, I should have two good days. Or I had 10 good days, I should have 10 bad days. That's balance, right? Rhythm is more like, hey, this is where I'm at.

Johnny (54:07.005)
Sure.

Dwayne (54:07.254)
Ha ha.

Johnny (54:15.022)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Johnny (54:21.568)
Yeah, you're checking your clock. It should be good daytime, right?

Tony (54:26.708)
This is, and I'm doing it for this reason, and this is why, and, you know, I might be cutting down, the job might be to cut down 100, a Lantus trees. Um, and, but that's just where it is. And there's a reason for that. And the attention's there. And it's not that I somehow have to counterbalance that. That's just the rhythm. That's the stroke of where I was at. And just because I'm down, because I'm having a sad time and, you know, I'm losing more than I'm winning. Hey, that's what happens. You accept it and you move on. And it just, so it's much more of a rhythm for me.

Johnny (54:43.834)
Yes.

Tony (54:56.384)
than it is. And I think trees are the same way, right? Like trees, you look at growth rings, right? They're not, like you don't have like, you have a 10 year old tree and had five bad years, so it had to have 10 good years. No, it had what it had. You know, it just, right? You know, it just had what it had, so you can see the rhythm of the tree's life and its growth rings. So, you know, so there's the, I think rhythm's a better term.

Johnny (54:56.517)
Yeah.

Johnny (55:07.078)
Yeah, weird. It doesn't seem to work out that way. Yeah.

Johnny (55:17.761)
I agree. I 100% agree. And rhythm by nature comes with highs and lows, right? And something that you realize, you know, Dwayne, you and I are, I think, you know, Tony, I don't know nearly as much as your past as you know, I'm not as close with you as I am with Dwayne, but you know, Dwayne, you and I have had our ups and downs. You know what I mean? And I don't mean like relationship wise, like obviously every relationship does, but like in life, we've had our ups and downs. And isn't it interesting that like we continue to pursue

Dwayne (55:18.242)
Yeah.

Dwayne (55:23.458)
Yeah.

Dwayne (55:41.55)
Great.

Johnny (55:47.641)
a higher high and of excitement or glee or joy or whatever. But like it's rhythm, man. It's, you know, that's just, if you're gonna subject yourself to these, you kinda gotta be ready for some of these. So when you're in there, you gotta just be, this is where I am right now, you know? And that's a hard lesson to learn. But I learned that lesson from my buddy Dale. He taught me that one. He's like, sometimes you find yourself in a situation that you have to be in.

Dwayne (55:56.322)
Thank you.

Dwayne (56:06.323)
Exactly.

Johnny (56:16.029)
Okay, like there's there is no getting out of it. And for him, ironically, he's got like one of those real jobs, like where you sit in an office and like you talk to people and answer memos and stuff like that. He's got one of those kind of things and a lot of it for him because he is a lot like me. It's just kind of like God, what am I even doing with my life? But there's sort of like if you just sort of just I don't know like renege a little bit of control and just like this is what I'm doing right now. You make the conscious effort to just experience it.

Dwayne (56:26.951)
Thank you.

Dwayne (56:33.26)
Oh

Johnny (56:45.925)
So now I've taken that on, like if I'm on a job site and it's my job site, right? Like I could probably come up with an excuse to leave it, to go and do something more important. But if I put a half mile of raking to do, I do find myself able to say like, this is what I'm doing right now. I'm just raking. Or when I'm in the ice bath, this is what I'm doing right now. I've committed to three minutes or five minutes. It's unpleasant, I'm gonna live, but this is what I'm doing right now.

Dwayne (56:56.069)
Thank you.

Dwayne (57:08.162)
Yeah.

Johnny (57:11.765)
And you know, there's certain aspects to training that is like that too. Commercial airline flights waiting at your gate, right? It's limbo and it's kind of torture, but you just, you know, submit every once in a while, like this is what I'm doing right now. And somebody would kill to be in this position. So let's try to figure out maybe what they're looking for and then just look for that and before you know it, there it is right back in front of you. I think the rhythm is a really good way to put it, Tony.

Dwayne (57:19.415)
Yeah.

Dwayne (57:38.498)
You know, I made this conversation, I just hear Shige's voice in my head and, you know, he would always, I like your term bristle, Tony. Shige would bristle at the term balance because, because a balance requires no movement. When something's balanced, it doesn't, like it's, it's sitting, right? And trees never do that. They never, and he called that dynamic equilibrium was his term.

Johnny (57:57.242)
Yeah.

Johnny (58:04.215)
Oh, okay.

Dwayne (58:05.134)
because it's a rhythm or flow, right? So because it's never in balance, it doesn't never sit still. So it's either, and it's dynamic, so it's moving and it's flowing, which I guess rhythm would be another term for that, Tony. And that is like, and you know, I think it's important, I think one thing I've started to realize is it is a part of life. And sometimes you wake up,

Johnny (58:15.676)
Right.

Johnny (58:20.974)
Yeah.

Johnny (58:33.216)
Mm-hmm.

Dwayne (58:35.278)
and it's raining in your heart or your mind or it's storming and you don't know it wasn't when you went to bed but it's storming in the morning and it's just going to be a snow day you know and it has no sense and to try to change the snow day into a sunny day is really quite futile and that's where my buddhism background comes in it's like

I can't resist that. I have to observe it and be in it and it's part of my day today and I don't know why it's happening. And to try to answer that as futile really, it's just to be in and just to enjoy the snow and it's not gonna last forever. And sometimes I might have a snowy month or it might just be blizzarding or not, what's the word I'm not, you know what I mean. I'm using weather as an analogy. So.

Johnny (59:10.621)
I agree.

Yeah.

Dwayne (59:28.734)
It's not sunny every day and it's not rainy and stormy every day, but it's part of life. And I think the seasons and trees, again, epitomize that. Like you were saying, Johnny, like spring, the beauty of it versus fall versus winter and summer.

Johnny (59:44.849)
Yeah, well, injuries, I was just gonna like to expand and just maybe close out with that idea. Injuries is what really taught that to me because by nature when you're injured, there are things that you cannot do, right? That like, there's a difference between being hurt and being injured, right? True, I would say, right? Like you can be hurt and you can work through it. You can push through it. We have to do that every single day. It's just part of being an adult.

Dwayne (59:49.267)
Ah, yeah.

Dwayne (01:00:04.046)
Bye.

Johnny (01:00:12.497)
But when you're injured, there are certain like structural things that cannot occur. You have no choice but to accept the fact that you are in number one, blinding pain, and number two, going to be unable to do the things that you want to do for a while. So what do you do? You know what I mean? And for, you know, people like me, sometimes it takes a relatively loud knock at the door for, you know, me to answer and actually listen. Um, but I'm forever grateful for, you know,

Dwayne (01:00:27.022)
Great.

Johnny (01:00:41.905)
the injuries and the stormy days. Because it taught me to just be able to kind of chill in that and be okay with it. And just know it's not going to be there forever. And if it is, then this is what I'm doing right now.

Dwayne (01:00:55.058)
Yeah. And through the analogy of compartmentalization and reaction wood and response growth, we're able to form into, you know, and wound wood is stronger than regular wood. And when the wound is sealed, the wood goes back to being formed the way it was prior to the wound. And, but

Johnny (01:01:06.95)
Yeah.

Johnny (01:01:15.065)
Right, but all the wound is compartmentalized, so it's still in there. So don't forget it, right? Heaven forbid you'd need a whole new pruning cut to teach you the lesson all over again. Don't go there.

Dwayne (01:01:18.974)
Yeah, that's right.

Dwayne (01:01:23.714)
Not only is it still in there, but it shapes who you are and that scar or that wound is part of you now and it shapes who you are, just like the tree. It changes its form or its tilt or its angle, right? And that's what it does to our lives.

Dwayne (01:01:44.17)
It's for whatever reason that was necessary. And it's rare that you hear people, at least maybe I'm just lucky to have experienced this, but most people wouldn't necessarily trade their experiences even though they weren't all good because they wouldn't be where they, some people are fortunate enough to realize it wouldn't be where they were without them.

Johnny (01:02:02.917)
Yeah. And I think like we're super fortunate, right? Like we, we work a job we love around people that we love in an industry that is right now, like I like, you would know better than me. You've been in the game longer than I have, but I have been in it for over 20 years and I like, this is the most exciting time that I've ever witnessed for our industry. Like the communities that are popping up, the groups, friends, the camaraderie that you're seeing, not just at competitions, but just like around.

Dwayne (01:02:16.302)
Thanks for watching!

Dwayne (01:02:26.222)
Mm-hmm.

Johnny (01:02:32.313)
Right? Like at these expos and at these trade shows and stuff, like it's, it's like this great big supportive community that I think when I was coming up, there was this like starving dog approach to work. Like if he got the work, that means I didn't get the work. Everybody was real secretive with like cool techniques and interesting pieces of gear because they didn't want to give away anything that might be a benefit to what they perceived as the other team. But now it doesn't seem like that. And

Dwayne (01:02:48.815)
Mm.

Johnny (01:03:01.325)
You know, I think that we could definitely thank folks like you and others that have like nurtured, I guess you could say like a rising tide in the industry and guys like me, like I'm super blessed in that now I get to ride the wave, you know, like the rising tide is given, you know, some pretty cool currents that we get to explore right now. You know, I just finished up. Well, number one, I was out in Toronto. So I visited with Andrew at Arborwood and then I got to, you know, chat with everybody that came to the vertical expo.

Dwayne (01:03:23.318)
Yeah. Yep.

Johnny (01:03:30.845)
And two things were really cool. Number one, all the arborists were all a bunch of hooligans and we all got along and it was super cool. So that was rad. You like, like sees like, right? You just spot people from across the expo, like we're gonna be friends. But what else was really cool is that show was set up in such a way that day one was like industry, industrial rope access, right? So it was like, you had proper professionals from their trade that were

Dwayne (01:03:40.706)
Thank you.

Dwayne (01:03:45.35)
Thank you.

Johnny (01:04:00.173)
excellent at what they did in an arena that was sort of like adjacent, but not the same. And then the second day was like police fire and tactical. So very similar personality types, but you know, experiencing that same thing in a different arena. And then there was ARB. Now everybody came back for ARB because they were like, we got to see what these guys are doing single rope systems. What are we even talking about you hooligans you're going to tie into a tree? What's what's the tree rated for like

They looked at us like we were nuts, you know what I mean? But what was cool is that the language that we all spoke, right, the anatomy of the human body in motion in the vertical realm, be it on rope or just at height, like it was universal for everybody. So yet again, I'm so excited about this industry because number one, there's everything that's happening within it. And then there's all this cool stuff that's happening just on the periphery that I think is gonna elevate us to an even higher tide as things move forward.

Dwayne (01:04:42.723)
Thank you.

Dwayne (01:04:55.976)
Mm-hmm.

Johnny (01:04:56.249)
I'm very optimistic for the trajectory of our industry right now.

Dwayne (01:05:00.138)
Yeah, there's definitely a, you know, I hate to say it, but I think the pandemic in a lot of ways has rejuvenated the human spirit and the connectivity that people value as a result of what happened. You people, people experience want to experience and value connect to the connectiveness on a far deeper level than prior to it's been my experience. And I think that's, that's what we're seeing not only in our industry, but others, but I think it's why.

Johnny (01:05:14.469)
I would agree.

Dwayne (01:05:30.116)
is one of the reasons why, I think.

Johnny (01:05:31.725)
I agree. There's like a weird 9-11 effect. You know, it's a little late. It would have been nice to see some of that during. But it's cool. I agree with you. I think that we all collectively went through something and we're coming out the other end and, you know, we're rediscovering what was important because the in the person training that we're doing and like, you know, the speaking and like the, and the shows and stuff like that, it's pretty cool right now.

Dwayne (01:05:39.052)
Hehehehe

Johnny (01:05:57.389)
It seems like everyone's excited to be out. Like there's a new restaurant open in town and everybody kind of wants to get a table and it seems like there's a whole bunch of tables available which is cool.

Dwayne (01:06:06.762)
Yeah, I agree. Well Tony, we're getting to that time. You know it's funny, Joni, we always get to about, around 70 minutes. It never, it, I don't know if it's a biorhythm, it sometimes makes me think that the clocks were made wrong or something, because it seems like a 70 is something magical. But, uh,

Well, I'll just say for myself right now, I appreciate your time and your spirit, your energy. It's always great chatting with you and it was just a really thank you for doing this and for sharing and letting others hear part of your story. And Tony likes to ask people a question. I kind of start off the same and we try to end sort of the same. Tony, your question for Johnny.

Tony (01:07:00.04)
Yeah, we usually ask people, you know, if you could turn back the clock or click back the clock or give somebody a piece of advice, you know, coming up following your path, what would that be, whether it be through Arbor Culture or pretty much anything in general, we don't have agendas here.

Johnny (01:07:17.229)
relax a little.

Dwayne (01:07:19.446)
Yes.

Johnny (01:07:20.773)
Just fucking let go.

Wayne and I had an awesome conversation in the stairway of a Wyndham Resorts Holiday Inn in Balzac, Alberta. Yes, that's a real name of a town.

Dwayne (01:07:40.741)
Heheheheh.

Johnny (01:07:42.941)
Dwayne and I are both A type personalities, true or true. Right? So when I would teach, I would wanna deliver the message from a D type personality, and Dwayne wants to deliver it from an I type personality. Which means Dwayne is going to connect with the people and he's gonna tell stories and he's gonna let them in. But when I get up there, I wanna be efficient and I wanna be effective.

Dwayne (01:07:47.489)
True.

Johnny (01:08:12.753)
and I want to deliver the absolute most amount of knowledge possible. And sometimes when that's the case, there is no time for stories and, and connection and all that type of, you know, inconvenient time taking shit in the way. Now I remember that Dwayne and I and to Dwayne's credit and infinite patience with me had already taught together like dozens of times.

So I had been perpetually stepping on his toes in every class that we were teaching and I got the feeling that he was doing the same to me. So we sat in the hallway before teaching a course and I remember him saying something along the lines of like, maybe we could try doing something just a little bit different this time. And I was like, okay, well, what does that mean? And I remember you saying like, that you were there to support me.

but not to compete with me. And that didn't make any sense. I've never, never had that experience from anybody up until at that point. Like, wait a minute, right? Like, so this is actually a team effort? Like, are you going to commit to being on my team? And for somebody like me, and because of my past, that's actually something that like, I do not take lightly, but you made that commitment. And then I thought like, you know, maybe...

Maybe I could do the same with him. And that is not a good feeling for me either. Right. Because that means that a, I'm relinquishing control and you know, you know, heaven forbid I look like an idiot or whatever. I don't know where it came from, but like that, that concept was pretty foreign because you know, I've always navigated this life alone. So why would there be a teammate in the room? But I tried it and I took that leap and thank God that I did because. I remember that course. I don't remember the course.

Dwayne (01:09:48.814)
Uh-huh.

Johnny (01:10:00.529)
I couldn't even tell you what it was, probably TTFC or something like that. But I remember thinking my new mission, my new goal is to make Dwayne look like a rock star in front of these people. And then he'll probably do the same for me. And everything changed after that day. And I let go a little bit. You know what I mean? Like I just, I don't know. I just was like, maybe today's the day. So I did. And the course went.

Dwayne (01:10:04.362)
Yeah, I think it was.

Johnny (01:10:28.721)
better than any other course we'd done. Dwayne and I were closer and happier than we'd ever been, especially as trainers together from that moment forward. And then I just got to thinking like, maybe there are people out there in the world that you can trust. And maybe by making somebody else the rock star of the moment, it can also help you to be the rock star of the moment. And I've taken that and I've never looked back, and I hope that I never do. Because the cynicism and the closed off

and the obsession of goal achieving and stuff is something and it will only get you so far. But like if you just learn to kind of go with the flow, it seems like things tend to, A, work out better and they take less effort to get there and you feel more fulfilled when they're done because it didn't feel like you forced it. I spent the first 27 years of my life forcing it.

And now I don't feel like I have to anymore and it's going better than it ever has.

Dwayne (01:11:35.086)
Well that's awesome, and thank you for sharing that.

Tony (01:11:37.996)
Yeah, no, thank you.

Johnny (01:11:38.437)
Yeah, you're welcome.

Dwayne (01:11:42.386)
Well, Tony...

Johnny (01:11:44.017)
that and also don't jump experimental base jumping equipment. Go with the stuff that's proven. Because there's just no reason to sign up to be a test pilot. You dummy. You know what I mean? Like, no, I'm just kidding. It was good gear. I was, I was probably using it wrong. So it is what it is.

Dwayne (01:11:48.014)
I'm sorry.

Tony (01:11:48.78)
There. There is the...

Dwayne (01:11:52.718)
Thanks for watching!

Tony (01:11:58.356)
Well, I guess I'll just have to.

Dwayne (01:12:02.03)
That's a pretty good concept. Ha ha ha.

Johnny (01:12:04.857)
Yeah, if there's one thing you want to hang your hat on, go with what works. But yeah, thanks so much guys for having me because I didn't know what we were going to talk about, but I knew if Duane was involved, it was going to be fun. And here we are having fun yet again for a little over an hour. So thank you.

Dwayne (01:12:11.271)
I never heard that, yeah I guess.

Dwayne (01:12:22.538)
Yeah, it was good, it was good. And Tony, the master of the audio, he'll cut and splice, he doesn't have to do much, but I mean, I shouldn't, I don't mean it that way. I mean, he does a good job of it, and it makes us all look good, like you were saying. How are you for time? You tight?

Johnny (01:12:41.561)
Wide open.

Dwayne (01:12:42.902)
So Tony, are we, how are we at with Matt? Do we have time for an acorn or not?

Tony (01:12:49.264)
He's probably going to want to check on around 3.30. So we have 15 minutes, 10, 15.

Johnny (01:12:56.077)
Oh, you're on Eastern Time. That makes sense.

Dwayne (01:12:57.802)
Yeah, do you wanna, like, I was thinking of a quick acorn on what you would have to say to people to recover from injury, you know, in 10 minutes or so, and we can make that a bonus for those that wanted to tune in. You know, cause you went, you know, I remember when we first started training together, you were getting, yeah, you were getting all the pins.

Johnny (01:13:14.135)
Oh, okay.

Johnny (01:13:19.897)
I was in and out of surgery. I was in slings, I was on crutches when we were starting to train together. Yep.

Dwayne (01:13:26.206)
I remember because you wanted all the steel taken out.

So maybe just give it a...

Johnny (01:13:30.901)
Yeah. And I mean, I still haven't. There's there's a bunch of metal in there that's going to be there forever. Because I, I got an appointment with a surgeon to get the metal out. And he was like, Okay, well, you know, it's been in there for and at the time, it was like, whatever, four or five years. He's like, so we can take it out. But we might re break your femur. But

Dwayne (01:13:35.892)
Okay.

Johnny (01:13:54.349)
If we do re break your femur, there's a rod right there we could use and you're already unconscious. So I was like, what are we talking like chances here? He's like 30%. I was like, we're keeping the metal in there cause we're not going, we're not going down that road again. So, you know, they took the screws out of my femur, but the rod is going to remain. Um, and then in my shoulder, um, my left shoulder, which had been, which has actually been reconstructed.

Dwayne (01:14:14.197)
Okay.

Johnny (01:14:20.241)
two or three times, I think like two and a half times, whatever, depending on what you consider reconstruction because of like the reattachment of tendons and all that kind of shit. But there's gonna be a little bit of hardware in there that's gonna stay in there as well, which I'm okay with. But the thing is at the time, just, you know, we were training in the cold also, like, right? Remember like, what was it like for Saskatchewan, like minus 40 doing aerial lift, like.

Dwayne (01:14:33.445)
Yeah.

Dwayne (01:14:40.925)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Johnny (01:14:45.457)
That was uncomfortable. And the nature of having like lingering injuries is like when temperatures change and pressures change, you get to notice it, you know, like, yeah, that's something else that you learned to kind of just embrace and love. But, um, when it comes to recovering, so like tips to recovery. So, okay. Number one, never give up hope. And I had to learn that, um, actually years after my main

Dwayne (01:14:47.307)
Yeah.

Dwayne (01:14:55.435)
Bye.

Dwayne (01:15:00.972)
Yeah.

Johnny (01:15:13.561)
acute injuries had healed. So just a little bit of context. Um, in, uh, in 2013, I had a parachute fail. I broke my left femur fractured my right tip fib. I broke five ribs, my sternum, my left shoulder blade, dislocated both my shoulders and then fractured both my humerus. So it was a pretty nasty impact. Um, I was left in the water with a snapped leg that like was beside me, like, you know,

my femur was completely detached and as I was kicking, trying to swim out of the river, you know, I was just slicing up the inside of my muscle tissue. This arm was essentially detached except for like skin and a little bit of leftover muscle. Like I was in really bad shape, but I managed to stay conscious and I managed to get to the edge of the river with the help of my buddy Curtis who was filming that day. So, you know, there were the acute injuries that took surgical intervention to heal and that took years, you know, like Dwayne, like, you know,

routinely I'd be teaching with you in slings and on crutches and things like that. But it was later that I developed this debilitating back pain in my lower back and a year would go by and another year goes by and another year. And, and now it's, you know, five, six, seven years later, and I'm waking up while I'm not waking up. Cause I'm not sleeping. Like I did, I didn't sleep through the night for eight years because of pain, just latent.

nagging pain. Um, I would get decompression therapy because they said that would help and it would work for a day and then yoga and then, you know, physio, and then Cairo and, and a different type of medicine, and then a new type of treatment. And then just like, inevitably I would end up right back in the state where I could push through it with the help of, you know, lots and lots of ibuprofen and lots, lots of Tylenol and

Dwayne (01:16:51.214)
Thanks for watching!

Johnny (01:17:06.861)
regular ice baths and two hours in the hot tub. And like, I could just stay ahead of it, just, just ahead of it. And I was starting to lose, lose hope. And you know, what, what really starts to get you is as you know, I had a young son at the time I was like, am I actually going to be able to do anything with Tidon? Like I'm, you know, picking him up hurts, going to work hurts. And then you get moving and you get home and you're like, Oh, am I okay? And then by like supper time, you're like, Oh my God. So

Dwayne (01:17:20.974)
Yeah.

Dwayne (01:17:24.322)
Okay.

Dwayne (01:17:28.918)
Well.

Johnny (01:17:35.249)
There was just that nagging nonstop pain, but I thankfully didn't give up. And I just kept researching different types of modalities, healing modalities. And I discovered regenerative medicine, which unfortunately in Canada is not covered by any type of insurance. You know, it kind of starts with prolo injections, which is usually dextrose directly in a soft tissue. I tried some of that, it didn't work. But PRP showed promise. And then of course, after PRP, the next step would be like stem cells of, you know,

Dwayne (01:17:39.016)
Oh, fuck.

Dwayne (01:17:51.086)
Great.

Dwayne (01:18:01.11)
Of course.

Johnny (01:18:05.197)
I could go for days just on these types of therapies that I've learned about, but I did find a doctor that was able to do X-ray guided PRP injections directly into my disc space, because it turns out that when you go into a river doing like 100 miles an hour, you're gonna rupture some shit, and I compressed three of my discs in my lower back. So what is it? L, it was L3-4 disc, L4-5 disc, and then L5-S1 disc were mashed.

Dwayne (01:18:20.428)
This is really...

Johnny (01:18:32.605)
potatoes, like sticking right all the side, which explained all the pain. But, you know, I had that procedure done and it was excruciating. Like my wife had to like help me get into the car seat backwards and put the seat belt on me backwards to get home. And I spent like 10 days laid up at home. But they just said, like, just know the difference isn't going to be now. It's going to be in months. And I.

Dwayne (01:18:57.346)
Huh.

Johnny (01:18:59.573)
I took no ibuprofen and I took no Tylenol and I did not do any ice baths or any of that type of stuff because they don't want you to do anything that's, you know, anti-inflammatory. And sure enough, 90 days. I'm like, wait a second. And then 120 days and then six months. And then before you know it, like, I was like, holy shit, like I did, I actually get my life back and I'm really careful to like celebrate anything in life early because you know, I'm always worried about the rug getting pulled out from under me. Right.

Dwayne (01:19:22.774)
Yeah.

I'm going to go to bed.

Johnny (01:19:29.065)
I will say that one treatment, which cost like $2,000, turned my life around. And I sleep now, I pick my kids up, I ride my bike, I still do flips and spins on my bike, I still base jump, I still skydive. You know, I take commercial flights all the time now and I get off the plane and I actually walk places as opposed to like stammer around. So number one, don't lose hope. There is always...

Dwayne (01:19:35.914)
Oh.

Dwayne (01:19:50.545)
Okay.

Johnny (01:19:57.645)
another thing that you can do. And I know people that have debilitating back pain or nagging knee problems or hip issues that like literally are having them face, you know, the type of questions like, what does the rest of my life look like? And am I interested in experiencing that? And you know, I gotta say, like, I definitely had those thoughts, none that I would ever act on, but you can't help but think like, you know, at the time, you know, I'm 33. Like, am I gonna be...

Dwayne (01:20:14.431)
Thank you.

Johnny (01:20:24.773)
Am I going to be in this much pain? It's only going to get worse, right? You can't let your mind go down that. So just, you got to focus forward, keep your eye on the prize. Now, in terms of day to day practice, Miyamoto Musashi, he did a really good job of illustrating. Like if you're going to go into battle, which is kind of the way that I view life, you got to make sure that you have as, as clean a house as you can. Like, so, you know,

not to sound preachy, but you got to get your shit together. And like, you know, we teach how you do anything is how you do everything. And it's super, super intimidating to think that way when your life is in shambles and all you really want to try to find is a shortcut because a shortcut out of any bad situation is the path you're going to take. You just, you need the situation to be better. So this concept of like a long-term commitment, you know, that can, that can, that's asking a lot from the person who has.

Dwayne (01:21:08.226)
Yeah.

Johnny (01:21:21.237)
no money, no more meaningful romantic relationship, no end in sight in terms of like pain and injury and no plan. Like I get it a hundred percent. Thankfully I've never had a drug addiction or anything like that, but I can imagine what it would be like. So I never looked down on those types of people anymore or something that as a young man, it's easy to look at people and see, Oh, you're a victim of your, of your, of your circumstance. But as you get older, you realize like, Ooh, we're all products. You know what I mean? So

Dwayne (01:21:49.804)
So.

Johnny (01:21:52.017)
do your best with the single step that you can take right now. And that might just be stretching, and it might just be cleaning up your diet, or it might just be taking 15 minutes of pure focus, no social media, no bullshit, to look into potential healing or treatment modalities. It took a lot of tenacity, and it was a pain in the ass, and I spent a lot of money, but I'm on track to

like living a relatively pain free and happy life again. And that's not something that I thought was going to be possible five years ago. Um, so it's interesting how, you know, you, you address one part of your life, be it, let's say your diet. And then all of a sudden your lifestyle changes a little bit. And then it's a little bit easier to make the next change, which is say, getting into the gym regularly. And then before you know it, you're like, well, I'm already in the gym and my diet's kind of on point. So maybe I should start thinking about sleeping a little bit better.

Like I'm tired from the gym and I don't feel like shit because of what I'm eating. So let's just work on actually getting our sleep under control. And before you know it, your relationships are improving too, because you're happier. You're more outgoing. You feel better. And then before you know it, you turn around and you're like, well, maybe all of this nonsense that everyone's been talking about in terms of, you know, higher meaning or spiritual connections, like your mind is, is freed up.

you end up with like a capacity. And I think that injuries are actually really powerful opportunities to get your shit together. So if you do find yourself hurt to a point where you're questioning Jesus Christ, like what am I gonna do next? That might be the universe just knocking and saying like, hey, this is a great opportunity, you got some downtime. Right? So let's maybe pick something.

Dwayne (01:23:48.866)
Yeah.

Johnny (01:23:50.373)
And years down the road, you get to start cashing in on those investments. And yeah, like I said, I'm just, you will learn, you will learn inevitably to be very grateful of those injuries if you handle them right. Maybe you don't, maybe they end up, you know, ruining your life or whatever, but I do feel like we have a choice.

Dwayne (01:24:05.031)
Okay.

Dwayne (01:24:12.398)
That is a very poignant accord. I appreciate that.

Johnny (01:24:17.485)
Okay, I'll take your word for it. The findings of a kid, a big, a kid.

Dwayne (01:24:21.36)
Thank you.